A Terrible Sad-Sack Universe

[00:06]

Welcome back to Maximum Power, the podcast whose sole function and purpose is to gather and accumulate information about Blake 7, but we do sometimes stop all that to make a porno.

This week we're visiting UltraWorld for a timely warning about the dangers of AI.

I'm Mark.

I'm Brendan.

I'm Rob, and I'm Simon.

By ancient tradition.

We'll hear from our new guest first.

Rob, what are your initial thoughts on Ultra World?

Well, hello.

Thanks for having me on.

My initial thoughts on Ultraworld.

I do like it.

It's an episode I like, but I feel like we're a long way now from the Wild Bunch in space.

That's kind of where I am with it.

It's one of those episodes that's very much what I thought Blake 7 was before I started watching it, which is basically what I'd call sort of grumpy Star Trek, basically, but it's...

It's not, I think, Blake 7 was when it began, and I think what Blake 7 is and kind of should be at its core, but it's still a really great slice of 1980 British sci-fi adventure, Tosh.

[01:17]

Yeah, those are my opening thoughts.

Yeah, I think even the beginning of this series felt like a bit of a reset back to how it started with the sort of serialised nature of the 1st few episodes and it felt like it went a bit gritty again.

Now it's swung back to the kind of high camp kind of stylings, hasn't it?

Yeah, I just, I think I'm missing a little bit of the politics, and I think, um, with, um, with Blake gone, I kind of think that, you know, the whole, the secret of Blake 7 really is the, the way that um, Blake and Avon dance around each other as the, uh, the reasonable, seemingly rational, revolutionary, and the, the cold, seemingly heartless man who actually Damn well does have a heart in Avon and their dance, their relationship.

But with Blake gone, Avon's missing that.

But what Avon does have is his relationship with Servolan, which again, again, Avon is just for me an endlessly fascinating character because he's coded as a villain, but his actions utterly betray that to every crisis that tests him.

[02:27]

And because this is a Servolan free episode, there's not that way left to kind of throw anything, throw him into relief and kind of just, you know, be a kind of a, or a bunch of, you know, criminals and revolutionaries in a, in a dystopian, fascist, human future.

This is a standalone Star Trek episode in many ways, where the story, it's fun, but it's not kind of, it's got away from the Wild West politics in space thing, which is what I really dig about it.

I think you felt to me at the beginning that it was going to be a big Avon episode when he recognises that they're inside a giant computer and he's the expert computer programmer. that it felt like he would be key to the resolution in some way.

Yes, it's hog's heaven to him.

Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, it doesn't quite pan out that way.

Yes, it doesn't because he ends up being, well, you know, captured and absorbed for the last 3rd or whatever it is, but I actually really, really like this and more than I thought I did.

[03:32]

I always thought of as a kind of a middling episode, but then watching it again this afternoon, I thought, I actually really think this is really quite good.

And I think the reason I like it so much is because it's it's because it's an ordinary episode.

It is not trying to be part of something greater than it is.

It's just an episode.

It's all resolved within the 50 minutes of the plot.

I actually think it's really well made. a lot of really great dialogue.

It's really well shot, and I think all the performances stack up.

So in some respects, I'm kind of sitting here.

I get what you're saying, Rob, about the, you know, we've moved away from the from the Wild West aspect of it, but taking that out of it.

It's kind of like, well, what's not to like about it?

I think it's actually really quite, quite entertaining.

Yeah, I think it's healthier for me to kind of to kind of judge it and kind of talk about it based on what it is rather than what it isn't.

It's interesting what you say about it not having the sort of political basis, a lot of Blake 7 does, because that's something I found watching it as well, because I thought at no point does anyone say, oh, maybe we can put everyone else's brains back and set them free or whatnot, you know, which is something I think Blake would have proposed.

[04:44]

That being said, I love your idea of comparing it to a Star Trek episode, particularly a season three, I think, original series Star Trek episode, which is the season of Star Trek, where they went a bit more fantastical and a bit more weird.

But I also think there's a lot to like about this one.

Series C is one I've seen about half of, and this was one of the ones I hadn't seen before and talking to Nathan and James.

I think from our show, they both kind of primed me for it to be terrible.

And it's not terrible.

I mean, any any sort of bad stuff I see in it is not unique to this episode of Blake 7.

And it has some really interesting concepts.

Like before we got on mic.

I was saying, I recorded an FTE earlier today, and I only had 4 points written down for the episode of that we recorded.

I've got like 20 written down for this.

And only 2 or 3 of them are like, why is this happening at stupid?

Yeah, like a page and a half.

Oh, yeah, no, that's the thing.

This is a good episode of Blake 7, and it's certainly not one of the bad episodes of series C, because they, boy, they exist.

[05:52]

But this is, no, this is a, this is a good.

If you wanted to show someone just an episode of Blake 7.

This is not a bad one.

And like I said, this was kind of, this represents my idea of what I thought Blake 7 was before I started catching it on UK gold back in the day.

In fact, I think even then, this is what I thought Blake 7 was like, just generally.

The production values are pretty high on this one.

I think the model work is is absolutely exceptional from the the point where the liberator's taken board up to world. the brain as well, the and the setting that that's in. and it's got that sort of Star Wars industrial used kind of look to it as well. that you get with models and chips and things.

I think that those elements are absolutely exceptional.

There's the best in Blake 7 so far, I think, in terms of model work.

I thought exactly the same thing.

The whole thing looks great.

And when you watch like the behind the scenes on the original 1977 Star Wars, all Star Wars is really, you know, if you take industrial light and magic out of the equation.

[06:55]

It's Blake 7 shot on 35 mil.

And, you know, it looks, it looks like, you know, if you take that, if this looks, this looks just as good.

The Marvel shots, 4 blake 7 are brilliant.

I love the brain.

I love it when the brain falls apart, the makeup stay.

I think there are some controversy behind the scenes or upset.

I think one of the makeup artists walked off this one, unhappy with how it turned out, but the makeup, the makeup is great.

And the location work.

Whereas it, yeah, Camden town deep shelter. you know, yeah, it's a really fine looking episode as well.

Yes, it's interesting that this is sort of alien architecture and yet the main corridor.

They keep running along is where Blake got captured before the series starts.

Oh, what really?

You know, where he comes around a corner and someone hits him hits him with a boat oar.

Yes, well, there are things in the millennium centre in Cardiff, which have been used multiple times in the new series of Doctor Who.

So I don't think we should be too fussy about that, Reddish.

It's also in the Sunmakers as well, if I recall correctly.

[07:58]

So it's a well-used...

That's where I recognise it from.

It's a well-used corridor, but you know, we like those.

When I was talking about it being really well made, what I really like is the, um, sometimes I, I said about this, this about killer, the killer episode as well, is that because there's not a lot of actual action, it means that, um, they can spend the precious little studio time that they have actually getting all of the performances right and all of the, they all hit their marks and the direction is really tight and then, it's exactly what you want for me in a multicam environment where it's it's very dialogue driven and you're in these very small sets that are smaller than they might

otherwise be.

And that's hidden by the fact that you get a lot of close-ups and extreme close-ups, especially as a scene progresses.

And I think that starts right from the get go, in the liberator, and then the 1st sequence that where they meet the ultras.

It's all just so tight.

And what I also love is that quite often dialogue is delivered, not in a sort of a shouty way, but there's quite a lot of dialogue, which is not whispered, but spoken in a relatively quiet voice.

[09:04]

And the whole soundscape that that sort of creates is quite appealing for me, added to the fact that Dudley is being kept relatively under control in this episode.

It can be a bit for a period of TV as well, quite declamatory, but no, this had me thinking, no, this is, this is, for Blake 7, it's a, it's a pretty darn cinematic episode, and, and all the plot strands matter in this one, you know, the comic relief with uh, Villa and uh, an Aurak, you know, it's, um, or your mileage may vary on how much you like Villa in comedy relief mode, but at least, at least it kind of, you know, it's the whole, the whole resolution is dependent on it.

And the whole thing is very, very neat and tidy.

And from a storytelling point of view.

The only part that jumps out is where suddenly the ultra say, right, and now we'd like you to do it.

And that's the one, that's the one part.

I think casting and tone is everything because, you know, if you put Rick Mayle in that part, you know, it's a different show entirely, but, you know.

[10:12]

If I can just pick up there, Rob, by saying it's cinematic, just to sort of disagree with that point, because I get what you're saying, that the original Star Wars film is kind of Blake 7 on a cinematic budget and, you know, done with real money.

I think the point that I was trying to make before is that it's not cinematic.

It's actually very BBC drama.

It's actually, I can almost believe it as a period drama, but then science fiction sets, if you know what I mean?

Oh, fair enough.

Yeah, okay, yeah, because of the way it's shot in that very tight multicam and just a 2 or 3 actors talking in a room, and, you know, obviously it's got that sort of, you know, pseudo Shakespearean kind of delivery in some of it, but it's actually, for me, the opposite of cinematic, it's actually very, very little, which is then expanded with a couple of the location moments.

But yeah, it's all very, it's all very claustrophobic, if anything else, for me.

Yeah, not fair enough.

Yeah.

No I see that.

Something I found quite extraordinary on those location shoots is the lighting.

And they get some of it in the studio as well.

Like when you think they're going to start absorbing Tarrant.

There's this green light shining on him and he seems mesmerised and then it's things like that red corridor that they use 2 or 3 times and just a figure walking down it.

[11:22]

It's Via Lorimer directing, and I don't think he's been this adventurous with lighting before, and it really suits the tone by selling that this is a very unusual place.

That shot, and the 1st time you see it, only lasts a 2nd with the figure coming down the red corridor with the smoke behind and everything, and it's really, it's really striking and dramatic, and it's such a short, quick cut to it, that, yeah, it kind of leaves you sort of real, like, what was that, who is coming for them?

and then he just, it doesn't cut back to it even. just them running away.

I thought that was incredibly effective.

And yeah, each time they do it, it does look absolutely amazing when they do that.

You mentioned Rob, the bonding ceremony.

It is very strange, that isn't it?

Because you sort of think of the, I think, up to that point, thought of the ultras as sort of one mind, you know, kind of fulfilling the cause, you know, wishes.

And then just one of them says, well, here's an opportunity.

Let's do this experiment, and the other 2 seem a bit kind of nonplused by it.

[12:23]

Guys, you know, you know what we should get them to do?

Yeah, we should get them to do.

I'm going to ask him.

I'm going to ask him.

Let's see what they say.

When a huge camera comes from the ceiling to film it and everything.

It does sort of come out of nowhere then, doesn't it?

It's one of those things.

It would be nice if it's kind of ceded, no pun intended earlier, you know, just so just some kind of foreshadowing that they're kind of doing full lifecycle studies on people.

It feels like a bit of a weird left turn that then kind of allows them to escape.

But yeah, it's one of the parts of the episode I remembered before going is, oh yeah, this is that one, you know.

So yeah.

So, you know, it stays with you, but I kind of, yeah, it does kind of leap out of nowhere.

But I do love it, though.

Yeah, oh, because Dana and Tarant use it as a ruse to escape, which again is really, it's really lucky they got asked to do it.

[13:25]

So they could do it.

But when they throw the little grenady thing and blow the hole in the wall.

That little jump that the ultras do, I just think is fantastic.

It's like, yeah.

Was that part of the bonding ceremony?

You know, it's like...

It's such a brilliant line.

Did the earth move?

It's also their thing.

They try to say, you know, this is adult science fiction. going to have sex.

Yeah, that must be cursed.

I would have loved it.

He would have he would have absolutely loved it.

Do you always keep a grenade in your filling, my dear?

Oh, that is actually a grenade in your Okay we're getting out.

All right, fine.

There are some really witty lines in this.

Like another one that struck me is when Dana and Tarrant find out that they're feeding bodies into this brain.

And Terence says, it's food for thought.

And then realises it's food for food, it's food for a brain.

And it's like, that's actually really clever.

So like Trevor Hoyle, I think, only writes this episode that he has been writing the novelisations up until this point.

[14:29]

So it's no surprise to me that he gets some really good character moments in there.

I know that line down as well.

That was a really good one.

And so Dane hadn't previously revealed that she keeps explosives in her teeth, had she?

That's, we've, the kamikaze cybermat returns, which we saw in, was that city at the edge of the world?

So it's good to see that again.

But then, yeah, the I mean, she must eat very tentatively, I would imagine.

And then she only puts it in for when she teleports down.

It is one of those slight sort of Roger Moore buzz saw wristwatch moments, which, you know, if they'd set up, you know, seeded it throughout the entire series that, you know, she never says yes to a gobstopper.

What's that about?

You know, or something, you know.

But yeah, it gets them out of the spot though. you know, but It does.

Yeah.

Something I wondered, though, at the beginning, like, they know they're teleporting down into hostile territory, and they teleport down, and then Avon and Tarant turn around, and I just kind of think, why not teleport in facing in different directions to start with?

[15:39]

Oh, because it looks cool, because you've got Dana, Dana standing in the middle, and she remains motionless in this really cool pose, and they both do the kind of the bonds down the gun barrel thing the other way.

I think because it looks cool.

I do wonder, yeah, do they do they ever like just, you know, secretly rehearse these back up on the Liberator in their spare.

How are we going to land this time?

Because it'd be, that was a really lovely image of them in the tunnel and, you know.

But remind me, why do they go down at all?

pure curiosity?

Well, they're chasing Kelly?

Oh, that's right.

Yeah, yeah.

She's constantly says, I don't know where I am.

And then everyone keeps saying, Kelly, where are you?

And I just, she just said she doesn't know where she is.

I think that's what takes it away from Star Trek, isn't it?

There's none of that kind of, you know, to discover motivation going on.

Yeah.

Well, I think in this series as a whole, the motivation for the crew is something I've kind of noticed, because the 1st 2 series, Blake is wanting to smash the Federation, and now that the Federation isn't the power that it was, and none of the characters have that sort of steely determination to absolutely crush it.

[16:50]

They're just sort of doing whatever comes along that week, aren't they?

And it's, yeah, it's just whatever they bump into or maybe they'll do a heist or whatever.

And I think that is something that may be slightly lacking for me compared to the previous 2 series.

There are little things I like, though, just simply that, um, once again, Avon betrays a fact, he doesn't leave people behind, if, you know, he's just one of those characters who is forever trying to hide from everyone that he cares.

Because, you know, if you if you tortured it out of him, that he's actually, you know, essentially, I think a decent person living in the absolute worst version of future, that's what makes him so fantastic.

But yeah, he is a wonderful character.

He's got so much depth, but I am missing either Blake or Servolan to kind of be the other comparably fascinating central characters of the series.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Something I really enjoyed about that 1st scene is the discussion about why to go there.

[17:51]

And of course, because we don't have the story arc anymore.

It's a bit difficult sometimes getting into the plot, but everyone contributes to that conversation.

And while they disagree, it's not an argument, like if you look at the beginning of city on the edge of the world, which is terrific, Avon, Villa, Tarrant, are all really annoyed with each other, and we so often see that at the beginning of a Blake 7 story, whereas here, it's an intellectual discussion with disagreements, and eventually they're like, oh, okay, we'll go in and be safe.

And then when it all goes wrong, Dana and Tarrant persuade Avon to go down there and it's believable that they would actually take that risk.

I really like it and I feel it's different to how we've gotten into some of the plots before this series.

Yeah, entirely think that that's entirely correct for me.

I was really, really loving that the way that discussion unfolded.

[18:55]

Also, the way that all the characters have their own differences, which are part of the brief, like someone's read the character summaries when they've written this episode.

But they're not over the top either, as Brendan is you're saying, they're not just having a shouting match.

It all has a very nice and sensible and adult progression to it.

And that was very appealing.

That's one of the reasons why you kind of captured that actual scene that you're talking about kind of captured my attention from the get go.

That's why I kind of got drawn into the episode. like, ooh, I think I'm going to like this because of the tone that was set by that saying.

It's interesting the way it flips as well from Avon wanting to investigate Ultra World and everyone else being cautious to when it comes to teleporting down, Avon's the one who's cautious and everybody else is saying, no, let's, you know, gung-ho, let's get in there.

It's a Cali Light episode, in a way, with John Chaplin being unconscious for most of the episode.

And I know it's the 2nd week in a row that Cali has been psychically compromised.

In Doctor Who, when Sarah Jane was possessed in 2 consecutive stories.

[19:59]

The doctor dropped her off with an excuse about visiting Gallifrey.

Do you think that Cali has also become a liability?

I did note down, we've just had sarcophagus, why does no one notice she's acting weird?

And then Avon says, did anyone notice that she was acting weird?

It's like, you didn't mention this 8 hours ago?

You just went, let's all go to bed.

It's a shame really, because sarcophagus is so brilliant.

So it's entirely understandable that it's like, okay, Jan, you're going to be in the background next week.

But at the same time, it's like, oh, it's another episode where Callie is taken over and takes the ship somewhere.

I think, what is this now?

7 of those?

Well, she doesn't really take the ship somewhere.

She just is the impetus for why the crew go down.

True, true.

That is true.

To be fair.

To be fair.

I think that is a good creepy moment when it shows you the the communicator, the the red bracelet sort of rotating and it's not her speaking.

It really intrigues you to see, you know, what has happened to him, what is going to happen next.

[21:03]

Yeah, I think if you look at this episode in isolation, which is how I tended to catch them on telly back in, you know, probably 20 years ago or something.

It's fine.

When you watch them in order, these things really do start to leap out.

But it is quite a, it's not a small cast, is it?

It's Avon Cali, Tarant Zen villa Aurak, Dana.

That is a lot of people to juggle in 50 minutes.

So I kind of, I'm, I am kind of sympathetic to the desire to, you know, background someone an episode.

But yeah, it does feel a bit unfair to kind of pick on Callie, though.

It might actually, you know, have been more interesting or something you could do in a different episode is do the same thing to Avon.

Just take Avon out of the equation. and then. right in the streets there.

Exactly, exactly.

But then, but then, you know, that that vacuum might kind of be be helpful to the other characters and kind of, you know, well, let's let's use everyone else who isn't Avon to the full.

[22:05]

Yeah, with such a large, large regular cast that makes sense as they do in Star Trek, you have various characters who don't feature in particular episodes.

It's just the problem is it's like that each episode is written in isolation without a consideration is to getting some kind of overall balance in that.

And that's why I'm loath to criticise a particular episode for being the one that has...

Yes, yeah. is what you're saying.

Yeah.

I kind of think because Blake 7 is just, you know, it has so much potential to be complex with all these different relationships and these really deep characters, some of them, from a writing point of view, if one were to do it now, not just because this is the way television is made now, but to keep a really tight handle on everyone, you know, doing it, it's like an 8 part miniseries is probably the best way to make sure you're kind of using all your characters correctly that everyone's firing on all and being who they're meant to be.

But as you say, writing, you know, doing this many a season and uh, and have them essentially sort of written in isolation does kind of lend itself to a certain drift, I think.

[23:14]

Um, and I think Siri sees a little bit guilty of that.

But like I said, I think we're just, we're a long, we're a long way from the initial premise in a way.

We are.

Which is which is fine. that's what TV can do.

But I think it's interesting you talk about the initial premise.

It's like, it's like the initial premises of, of, you know, character summaries is that there's a couple of paragraphs written to say who a character is and where they're from and who their parents are and whatever the hell it is.

And then that's used in the 1st episode, maybe the 2nd and then it's kind of forgotten.

Although every now and again it rears its head.

And I think that's what sort of happens to the original premise of Blake 7 is especially when Blake departs the scene.

It's like, well, why are we really all here?

You know, we're just kind of continuing.

And but I actually think that's actually, for me, what's appealing about series C.

I actually think that this is the strongest that the series is the strongest that the series is in the 4 years that it does, partly because it's not trying to It's not trying to tell a bigger story.

[24:18]

It just, it's just is each week.

And I think there is, there is something about that.

I think when we're talking about those kind of arcs and all that sort of stuff.

We're talking about it through a sort of a 21st century lens and I don't think that's the sort of thing that was, they had concerns concerns about 40 something years ago.

Whenever this was done, you know, 45 years ago.

43, 43, I was too old.

I do beg your pardon.

I was 2 months old when this one came out.

Oh, gosh, you were a youngster. how old were you when this came out?

Um, I was not bored.

By Sargent.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

My, my, uh, so I don't have a Blake 7 horoscope.

It was gone by the time I came along, but my Doctor Who horoscope, depending on how you look at it, is either the 5 doctors or repeat of terror of the Zygons, because Australia just endlessly.

Yes, yes.

[25:20]

But yeah, you're right, but this is a really fun. standalone episode of the Flex 7.

And that's.

And that's very refreshing for me.

Like, I'm just sick of just sick of all of these arcs and things.

I just want to, I just want to sit down 50 minutes and watch something where, which has a beginning and middle and an end.

You can press stop and you go, well, that was that.

And it doesn't matter whether I watch it completely out of sequence for the others.

I mean, as you were saying before, Rob.

Like, you know, you saw this probably out of sequence.

Oh, totally.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, this was one of the ones that I sort of picked up because you sort of see the, you saw the ones that were on those VHS compilation tapes and there are a couple of other episodes that we had floating around in our broader group of friends, but this was one of the ones that I only saw after all of the VHSs came out and you could actually see them all from go to whoa.

So maybe it appeals for that reason.

It was one of the kind of the missing episodes for a while.

It wasn't the one that anyone had access to.

Do we think that they should have swapped personalities between Avon and Callie at the end of the episode and maybe had a couple of episodes of them trying to swap them back?

[26:26]

Would that have worked?

Oh, that would have been fun.

I think Paul Darrow would have had a lot of fun playing Cali.

I'm not sure whether Jan Chappell would have enjoyed that performance by Baldera.

I did wonder, and I thought this was something that was going to happen, was to sell it, whether we would see Avon or Kelly on the screen.

You know, like when Tarrant finds the that sort of data cylinder to begin with, and he slots into the desk and the guy's that his memories pop up on the screen so he can interact with him.

I thought maybe that would have sold the idea that their their minds had been removed and were now stored in those sort of perspects, cylinders, whether that does something, watching it as a 1st time.

Yeah. that would have happened.

And maybe Avon then could have talked Tarrant through the process of reversing it, you know, kind of say as the as the computer expert.

Well, yeah, that's a nice idea.

Yeah, yeah.

But a little extra squeeze of the lemon.

Just, yeah.

[27:27]

Yeah, I thought we might have been going in a similar direction with Callie being a telepath because they make a big deal.

The 3 ultras make a big deal about Cali being a telepath and we don't see telepaths very often.

So I thought Callie's telepathy would would do something there, but unfortunately not.

Yeah, I like that, I like that phrase, Robert, another squeeze of the lemon.

It's like the fish and chips are lovely. very much.

Put a bit of lemon on.

I did also notice with those with those personality tubes or whatever they are.

Um, they're sort of coloured like a um, like a, like a fancy cocktail.

So I've written down here Ralph, whose whose thing is blue and purple.

It's he's kind of like a fruit tingle.

I don't know if any of you have ever had a fruit tingle cocktail, or if it's a uniquely Western suburbs of Sydney experience.

But, um, yeah, and I think later on Avon is a tequila sunrise. like he's sort of orange and yellow.

[28:27]

But it's like, I'm sure I'm sure they had.

I'm sure they had these these fruity drinks, so I wonder if that was that was the designer going, okay, everyone's a cocktail.

Oh, there is one tracking shot.

I love near the end when they're escaping.

It's just, it's down the corridor with just all the corpses, just lit red.

It's like, this is this is Blake 7.

Yeah, it's, it's a hot, this is a terrible, sad sack universe they live in and uh, yeah, there is a, there's a body count and people don't get saved and our heroes only ever get away by the skin of their teeth.

And yeah, maybe they could have saved more people, but yeah, they didn't.

They didn't because probably they didn't actually care about saving the others.

I mean, I think that's the difference is that, yeah, they just give us stuff about all of these people.

I mean, yeah, because all that needed actually is as a kind of a get out of jail thing was for them, someone to say, oh, they've been absorbed for more than so long.

Therefore, it's impossible to extract them.

You just need that as a line.

[29:30]

But I think it's very Blake 7 to say we don't even care that there's such a reason.

Yeah, and that tracking shot has a kind of a mood of almost rebuke to it in a way.

Literally, you know, and these are the dead people. yeah Yeah, it's almost like, you know, the show is saying, yeah, maybe they could have saved them, but they didn't.

I think it's kind of it's there almost, I think.

They didn't even try.

Yeah, yeah.

What do we think of the ultras themselves, the 3 ultras?

As a kid, I would have been terrified of them, I think.

Uh, proper non-cozy, creepy, late 70s, BBC, sci-fi weirdos.

Yeah.

I like them.

They're memorable and strange.

It's one of those things where, you know, if looking at this as a standalone episode, they're very Star Trek, it's their trek entities, the kind of people that, you know, an away team could quite reasonably meet.

If you're looking at Blake 7 as an ongoing thing, they don't feel like the kind of people that Blake 7 would concern themselves with usually because they're not part of that kind of fascist empire versus rebels discourse in a way.

[30:44]

They're outside of it and their own thing seemingly.

But yeah, no, they're good.

Yeah, trek monsters in a way.

I did like how they, um, it's one thing they mentioned in the beginning is that the plantary mass of earth is quite common, and I think, and that was just a nice way of the show explaining why so many different planets look like quarries.

It was just kind of like, there's little...

I think that was to do with the...

That's probably even more important, but yes, yeah.

Yeah, well, that's the thing.

They say we've encountered 1000000s of species and all their menials look like human bank managers, you know.

Yeah, there is a look.

But, I mean, it's kind of funny that the look of a lot of them is similar to the ultras themselves.

They're all sort of bald men.

Not every single one of them, but a lot of them are, including Ralph, who's the main one.

Do you think they've asked them all to have a girt the old bonding ceremony?

Or is it just a brand new thing for Dana and Tara?

[31:48]

There are no female menials.

No, well, it doesn't, it's probably, you know, Oh, yeah, here we are.

Item 12 on the old questionnaire, right.

Now, here, can you just have a, give a, give a go.

We'll see, you know, we are we are filming.

You know, we can put on some, I don't know, Al Green or Marvin Gaye or, you know, a bit there for you or something, bit of, you know, French turn of the century electronica, and see what happens. you know.

I like to think they did, yeah.

Yeah, I think Ultra one has sort of hit his 5th century and that's when you start getting a bit of adventurous in the ultra world and he's become a bit of a voyeur.

That's why the other 2 are like, oh, God, snake.

They're in their 6th century.

They've done that You think you understand that they're kind of this kind of possibly some weird alien gestolt thing.

And then the bonding ritual request thing happens and suddenly I don't understand them again.

It's like, this is a bit of motivation I wasn't expecting.

So that kind of, that actually, that bit does actually throw me slightly as to what they're about and what they're like.

[32:51]

Um, but yeah, they're they are definitely a memorable uh, uh, set of characters for uh, Siri, C, though.

I approve.

Yeah, do we know the actors?

Because I was trying to place the actors sometimes and I felt that their performances were actually really, really good is and they weren't, they were kind of being mysterious and silly enough without chewing the scenery.

I was really happy with that the level that they were pitching the performance at.

Yeah, it's Peter Richards, Stephen Jen, and Ian Barrett.

And I think, yeah, I think they were casting bald actors.

I think one of them may have shaved their head for it and one refused, which is why one of them... like one of them's wearing a cap, yeah.

Yeah.

So Ian Barrett, who is, I think, the one who doesn't have his hair cut at the sides, is Professor Peach in Doctor Who and the Unicorn and the Wasp.

Somewhat after this episode.

[33:52]

Somewhat after this episode was filmed.

But yeah, he's regularly been in work.

He's still working.

He's just done an episode of Doctors this year.

Stephen Jen, who I believe, is Ultra 2.

Which one's Ultra 2.

So I think he's the one in the middle with the so not the main ultra and not the one with the sort of 1980 Patrick Stewart cut.

So the one in the middle.

Okay.

Uh, is navigator Seca.

Nightmare of Eaton.

Okay.

The drug edit.

I was looking for someone more.

It doesn't matter.

That's fine.

Thank you for that.

They felt...

Maybe that was just the idea.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

I want to be with Nathan when he listens to this episode so I can hold him back while you slag off the nightmare of either.

You wanted something more.

I was just wanting a more substantial character that I could, you know...

[34:52]

However, if you're asking me to start off, I'm very happy to.

There are some great moments where something is seen, like, Callie being dormant with all the other people in the rack things, whatever they're hanging from.

And then you sort of cut briefly to another sequence.

And then we cut back and we've moved forward enough in time to avoid the tediousness of getting her out and whatever else is happening to go on.

And those are the sort of things that would inevitably look rubbish.

So I think that those are the sort of decisions which are made in the making of this. and whether that's a writing decision or a directing decision or a production decision or whatever it is, those are the sort of decisions which for me make it all hang together better and avoids those sort of bits that inevitably are shit.

Yeah, I suppose if we'd actually seen bodies growing into the green, that wouldn't have looked good either, but we see them going into the feeding tube and we see the brain sort of grotesquely expanding and throbbing and everything.

And we get, we immediately get that they're being digested somehow.

[35:56]

Yeah.

It's wonderfully disturbing when you see the bodies just go in.

It's, yeah.

Yes.

And the same thing when they when they kill the 2 ultras towards the end.

It's a bit strange.

It's kind of, it's a killing that happens off camera, even though you're in the room when it happens.

And it's almost like, I mean, maybe it's probably because there's a missing shot or they ran out of time or whatever the hell it was, but I still find it very effective way of covering that moment.

Yeah, that moment looked like it was cut for violence because, and also there's a, it looks like it was.

I have no idea whether they filmed it.

But there isn't, there's something about the way Avon delivers his line to Tarrant there.

It's something like finished or happy now or something like that.

So it's like, what did Tarrant do?

Precisely.

Because there's a distaste on Avon's part.

And I feel it feels like...

Yeah.

Oh, he did something possibly needlessly sadistic that, yeah, it's again one of those little things, those little clues you get that Avon is a decent man desperately trying to hide his decency from the universe.

[37:10]

And Tarant is not.

Yeah.

But he's very witty about the way he chooses to hide his decency, I find.

So that's makes him, you know, all the more entertaining.

It's to do with the fact that really, essentially, he is your kind of classic wounded romantic hero.

But he does not, you know, he does everything he can to not seem to be that.

I mean, it's actually quite a stock character, but the way he's dressed up and just the layers he's got.

Not to mention Paul Darrow's performance, but just conceptually, he is just, he's such a, he's such a good character.

And one thing I like about him and Tarrant is that, um, Tarrant is, uh, is none of those things.

Tarrant is not, Terence, Terence not someone you want on your side.

And, uh, I think in in that moment where he kills those 2 ultras.

I kind of suspect, have we were we just robbed of one possibly really horrible but really great character moment just to just to remind us of the differences between these 2 bastards?

[38:13]

Yeah.

Yeah.

But again, that's another one of the things I love about Blake 7 is that, you know, I like the, you know, I like the revisionist Westerns and stuff like, you know, the dirty dozen and, you know, these difficult, problematic, unpleasant people.

But I'm a sucker for when you discover that actually, no, despite all evidence to the contrary, that guy's actually a secret good one.

And yeah, able's a secret good one, you know.

Yeah, the wonderful thing about fan discussions and fan readings of all these things is it means when fans get to write the official product.

We get those character moments that have existed for us for many years.

And you, Rob, would know that more than any of this, I think, but I've spoken before on the show about how much I really enjoy the Blake 7 big finish stories, which get extra time with those characters, but it totally squares with what the actors were doing in 1980.

[39:16]

Yeah, it's not unlike with a photograph, you know, especially analogue photography.

There's far more data in the picture than the human I can see, but it's there.

You know, and if you, you know, you look at things in different resolutions, you know, in different filters. you can draw different stuff out.

But it's, but it's already there to be, to be mined.

And yeah.

Yeah.

And that's, again, it's another reason why Blake 7 is so damn good is there is so much built-in and present conflict drama layers, whether or not a particular episode chooses to explore them.

It's so rich and it's all, it is all there to be taken out and played with.

And then, yeah, put back.

But yeah, chuffing Lovett for that reason.

It is so good.

To get in the spirit a little bit, I've got a terrible riddle.

What do you call it when honey producing insects conspire together?

Not a conspirator be?

No, I don't know, Mark.

[40:16]

What do you call it when honey producing insects conspire together?

It's a B plot.

And the B plot here, such as it is, is...

The village decided to start obsessively writing jokes.

Brilliant.

What do we think of the quality of the jokes?

The quality of the jokes are terrible, but they're like a Christmas carracker.

They meant to be terrible.

So everyone's against them.

But I like the way Orrex kind of understanding that they're terrible and kind of analysing their terribleness and it's great.

And then uses that as a little plot point to say how they were holding off the ultra.

Yeah, that's all good.

It works.

My my 2 things about that are is that Villa has come.

Villa is a long way away from the character we 1st met.

He is kind of, you know, it's, and I like it when we're reminded that he's a thief and again, he is someone you don't want on your side, but guess what?

You're stuck with a son of a bitch.

Yep, but 11 the jokes are no problem with the jokes, except that.

[41:17]

The interesting thing is um, with the one, yeah, where do space pilots leave their ships at parking meteors?

Now, for that joke to work, and for Villa to know, that means parking metres do actually exist in the Blake 7 universe.

So, yeah.

Well, Rob, Rob, you're the one who keeps talking about a fascist future.

I had the same note, because most people on Earth live in domes, don't they?

So you don't even imagine them driving, let alone having parking metres.

They're in space, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

On a similar note, when Tarrant, you know, who was presumably brought up in a dome and went to Space Academy and whatnot, says to Dana, have you ever seen a lizard suck a bird's egg dry?

And I just thought, Dana's more likely to have seen that than you are.

Like Dana used to go hunting for God's sake.

And and also it's like, so yeah, it's kind of like that in the, something is being sucked out, but also not because that's not a brain and it doesn't, it's not attached to a body yet and this isn't a lizard.

[42:31]

But yeah, apart from that Tarrant, bang on.

It's like putting too much air in a balloon.

Well done. looking for analogies.

I think for me, there's no real explanation of why Villa's doing this this week.

And so you think it's got to be relevant.

And then once Tarrant and Dana and Avon arrive on the planet and Tarrant makes that quip.

And they don't, and the ultras don't understand it, and Avon says, that's what passes for Wit aboard our ship.

I thought, ah, this is how this place is going to be defeated, because Villa is just kind of obsessed with rewriting jokes up in the ship.

Because up to that point, I think it's sort of quite clever in the way that you think, well, they're in a giant computer, as I say before, Avon's a computer expert, he could defeat it.

Callie's a telepath, as someone said earlier, so it could be her that defeats it.

Youve got all records of supercomputer.

He obviously does play it into it.

So there's quite a lot of avenues there, but yeah, for me at that point, I thought, well, that's definitely how it's going to be resolved because it's, yeah, it's, there's no other reason for Villa to be doing that, really.

[43:35]

There's no proper kind of inciting incident for the B plot.

Like, you know, is there?

he's already doing it when we, when the episode starts, rather than Aurak not getting a, he makes a joke as an aside, Aurak doesn't get it, and that kicks off his frustration with doing it.

Yeah, so that would probably...

I don't even see that as a B plot, the whole villa in the ship talking to for some reason.

Look, it's not really a plot.

He didn't give me a C or a decod.

It's just it's just a bit of colour that then comes back to the A-plot to all the plot to have some relevance.

A B plot needs to, they need to be having their own kind of separate subadventure that they couldn't work out enough to do to make it a proper episode out of, you know.

Yeah, something I sort of find with that.

And I was reading online, apparently, this is Michael Keating's least favourite episode.

And if he's just come off the back of doing city on the edge of the world, which he got, because he said, you know, my kids don't think I'm heroic, yeah, coming into this is a bit of a problem.

[44:41]

But even then, he realises when he's being mentally attacked and asks Aurak for help, which I think is a fascinating moment, considering Kelly can't do that.

And, you know, sci-fi characters are always being possessed, et cetera.

But for Villa to be able to say, I know what this is.

I'm being got at.

Orac helped me and Orac just basically says, okay, you're going to jam them and I will do the flying and everything else.

Yeah, if you do want to consider the strand with Villa and Aurak as a B plot, then it's kind of, it's the story of how Villa turns this humourless computer into a continuing to be humourless computer that deconstructs jokes until they're no longer funny.

Basically, Villa turns Zorak into a comedy writer.

You know, and that's kind of, you know, that's what that that's what that plot is.

If I could level one potential criticism at this story, is it does feel like a bit of a retread of redemption in some of its ideas.

[45:50]

You know, the altars become the ultras, the system becomes the core.

But I think this is possibly a better exploration of the idea.

Maybe because the whole episode is given over to it, because I remember way back when we were talking about redemption.

I was kind of like, this feels like 2 episodes. like the being dragged towards something and then the system is destroyed really quickly.

But yeah, so I think giving it space to breathe makes this episode feel really great.

I'd always assume this episode was relatively poorly considered out there by people.

And I asked PC this afternoon after I'd watched it, the scene.

I actually really thought that was quite good.

And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, people generally think it's rubbish.

And I was looking at IMDb and only volcano and molar have lower ratings in IMDb.

And this is level with Harvest of Chiros on 6.7 on IMDb, which is another episode which I love.

So I might be the strange one here, but we have just spent the last hour or so saying that at the very least this episode is okay to quite entertaining.

[46:57]

Why do we think it's sort of considered less popular?

I'll have a go.

If you're judging this episode as a standalone on its own terms for what it is rather than what it isn't.

It's a good bit of dark Star Trek with some real, you know, with some good character stuff, you know, with all the leads, it looks great. very well put together.

And there are no bits that clunk.

Um, maybe maybe the uh, the bonding ceremony bit comes out of nowhere and is kind of memorable, the mildly the wrong reasons, but it's a good solid bit of like seven.

However, if your metric is to judge it upon its place in, you know, kind of the ongoing quest of this ship and these survivors, you know, with the in the backdrop of a huge British fascist future empire thing, then it's not going to scratch that itch, but I think possibly it's maybe it's because it was being judged on things it isn't rather than what it is.

[48:00]

So that would be my hunch.

But, um, in and of itself, I don't see what it has done to deserve that level of uh, of disrespect.

Yeah, and I think coming to them as I am for the 1st time and not really knowing what the sort of received fan wisdom or anything is.

I would have said this was sort of better than average one, I've enjoyed, say, production values, I think, are some of the best that we've seen.

And yeah, I think it's a really decent science fiction story with good performances.

And I think compared to the only one I've not really thought was any good as volcano, to be honest, out of this series.

And it's, you know, head and shoulders above that, I think.

Yeah, building on sort of the previous series.

I think we, you know, we've just had city on the edge of the world.

Children of Our On, Rumours of Death, Sarcophagus, all of which are very highly regarded.

And I think we then get this, which is good.

And then it leads to Moloch.

[49:01]

So I think maybe people are putting those 2 together in their minds because then we get Death Watch and terminal.

And I won't say anything else about those to you, Mark, as you're still watching, but it's kind of like, yeah, I think what you were saying there, Rob, about people judging it for what it's not.

They're sort of looking at around it and the ocean around it.

And it's kind of like, yeah, I, you know, the only 2 episodes that have sort of disappointed me this season are Moloch and parts of Dawn of the Gods, although I think that had a good setup.

And yeah, I think possibly the design of the ultras, if you just see the, I see a picture of them, they just look a bit silly, but with the performance, they look good.

And yeah, then there's the bonding ritual.

But the thing I like about the bonding ritual is we don't know how much time passes between scenes.

We don't know if anything else happens and it's left ambiguous.

I think the impression we're meant to have is no nothing happens.

[50:03]

Like, she pulls him onto the bed, they snog for a bit, then they do the bit with the grenade.

I think that's what we're meant to believe, but you never know.

Yeah, one thing I love about that, which I forgot to say was that, um, yeah, I, I just, I, generally, I, you know, even though it's a kind of a fake out thing to escape.

I still love the kind of just the attitude to sex that characters have.

It just feels it feels real and it feels totally suitable for them, their world, and everything else.

There's no coyness or embarrassment.

It's just, yeah, these, these, yeah, yeah.

And it's it's a place to take characters that sci-fi doesn't, you know, in this period, this period, you know, on the beep, you know, so it just it, yeah.

And on one hand, it feels kind of grown up, but on the other, because it kind of jumps out of nowhere.

It also feels a little bit spurious, but but but just Dana's attitude to sex and Terence as well.

Something about that, I just think in character terms, I think, is good.

I think it works.

[51:03]

Yeah, I agree.

I very much agree.

I wonder whether people sort of like it less because of all the Blake, it's one of those Blake 7 episodes, which is not nearly as Blake 7 episodes, and it's kind of what we've all sort of touched on at various times before.

You know, partly because there's no server land in it, obviously, but it's not like she did every episode, but it is missing that kind of heightened small sea campness that I think I think does infuse a lot of episodes where the Jacqueline Pierce is in it or not.

And this is actually, even though you've got Villa on the Liberator telling dreadful jokes to Alrek, I mean, that's supposed to be the comic relief and other other bits of comic relief, but it's not silly.

There's nothing about this episode which is sort of silly, or at least not deliberately silly, and I think that might be what some people might be looking for in some other episodes.

I think it's the same reason why we brought it up last season.

Like 2 of my favourites from the previous season are Killer and Horizon, both of which take themselves actually quite seriously. but are also very entertaining and very, very well made, both of them.

[52:04]

But again, I don't know whether either of them are particularly rated highly in the Blake 7 canon.

And I'm wondering whether it's for comparable reasons.

Yeah, I have a natural mistrust of received fan wisdom anyway, because it's one of those things that, you know, having grown up through Doctor Who, as one does, you know, it changes generation to generation, and you can always tell who's the dominant fan generation at the moment, is usually the ones who's got output commenting all this stuff.

And it's so receive fan wisdom kind of changes with the with the weather.

So kind of coming to these relatively recently in the last couple of years.

Because I only started watching Blake 7, seriously, when I was asked to write one for Big Finish.

So I can say, right, I'm going to actually do it.

So just watching them fresh as if they're coming out now, which is essentially what I've been doing is that's the true test.

So I kind of think in some, in some ways, I think the healthiest thing is just to ignore the, you know, treat, receive fan wisdom as an interesting phenomenon to discuss in itself.

[53:12]

Yeah, that's the kind of that's the way of doing it.

Yeah, no, I entirely agree.

I mean, you should take everything on some merits and I love doing that. and my views of things.

I mean, us, Brendan, are often contrary to recede fan wisdom.

Often they're in agreement, but I do agree with you that receive fan wisdom, whether it's Doctor Who or Blake 7 or whatever it is, is, I agree, usually the result of 3 important people at the time, what they thought of it, and then that kind of permeates down, and that's why the gunfighters is rubbish for a while, and then, and then it starts.

That's, as you said, that's, that's, that's fascinating about this is because the received fan wisdom becomes another interesting thing to therefore discuss, which is why it's good to take that account.

It's interesting, but I would kind of, this is a perhaps a different discussion, but I'm not convinced it necessary changes like the weather.

For me, it changes.

It's almost like there's a catalyst is something where it's almost like a religious moment where everyone accepts that this is the quality of this episode and that episode related to that episode and this is where everything sits.

[54:13]

And then for some reason, something happens.

And back in the day, it would have been a VHS release or something or the episodes being recovered or whatever happens to be, it suddenly creates this, this, like, come to Jesus moment where everyone goes, oh, my God, I've seen the light and actually this is actually really great or actually this is really terrible or whatever it happens to be.

And the whole thing is reappraised, and then a whole new fan received wisdom sort of sets itself going from that point of view.

So it's kind of like there are step changes in fan received wisdom rather than rather than a kind of assigned way.

Yeah, weather was absolutely the wrong analogy.

It's absolutely a religious, a religious metaphor is, is always the way to explore these things.

You know, who, you know, which generation is accusing which of heresy and, uh, you know, what, yeah.

Because it's always, it is always heresy.

And I'm a modern day heretic.

[55:19]

As ever, thank you very much for listening.

Join us next week when we'll be discussing Moloch.

In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and keep up with us on our website, maximumpowerpodcast.com, where you'll find links to all our other podcasts, Bondfinger, the BJBJ game show, Flight through Entirety, Jody into Terror, Trap One, and Untitled Star Trek Project.

Thank you very much.

Goodbye.

Good night.

Bye bye.

Until next time.

Switching to manual.

Maximum power on all drives.

Maximum power.

Who was I talking to?

I think, um, Simon, the other day, I was talking to Conrad about the Kill the Moon episode.

Oh, God.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he said, and he said, Simon's very spirited.

I love it when Simon gets spirited.

I said, yeah, I don't think this made it into the edit, but at one point I say to Simon and Nathan, I don't like it when daddy and daddy start fighting.

[56:24]

But that was sort of a big discussion over just how an episode's reception was changed over the last 10 years, you know, and then we're talking about something here, which, yeah, as we said earlier, it's 43 years old and, you know, has gone up and down.

Something I've noticed recently is a lot more people saying, actually, quantum of solace isn't that bad?

It's just that we had to pick the worst Daniel Craig film, and that's what we settled on.

And then people are like, but there's Spectre over here.

But I noticed with the Daniel Craig films, it's like they come out, they're the best ever, and then it's like fashionable to shit on them for about 5 years, and then they go back up again.

Unlike, say Roger Moore, where you can always just make fun of Roger Moore.

Even though most of the films are good.